MICHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: For another perspective on this long war in Ukraine, we turn to Oleksandra Matviichuk. She is a human rights lawyer who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2022 for her work on democratic reforms in Ukraine, and she joins us from Berlin. Thank you so much for taking the time.
OLEKSANDRA MATVIICHUK: Thank you for invitation.
MARTIN: I'm thinking that February 24 is a difficult day for you. Is that so? How are you doing?
MATVIICHUK: It's a fourth winter of large-scale war and it's very difficult. Russians are deliberately destroying energy grid. Millions of people in Ukraine are literally freezing in their flats without heat, water and electricity, but don't give up.
MARTIN: Is there something about this last year that really stands out?
MATVIICHUK: Ironically, the Trump's year of negotiation became the deadliest period for Ukrainian civilians. The numbers of people being killed and injured increased in 31% in comparison with the previous years, and there is reason for this. United States negotiators discuss natural minerals, Russia's territorial claims, geopolitical interests, but they don't discuss people. And this lead Russians to think that there is no red line.
MARTIN: I think many Americans might be keeping note of the fact that these trilateral peace talks between the U.S., Russia and Ukraine seem to be going on, but they never seem to produce anything productive. I mean, do you think a diplomatic end to this war is still possible?
MATVIICHUK: It's not easy task, frankly speaking, because Putin doesn't want peace. Putin started large-scale war because he want to occupy and destroy the whole country and move further. He see Ukraine as a bridge to Europe. He want to forcibly restore Russian empire. And the problem is that Putin doesn't refuse from his goal. So if President Trump want to succeed in his peacemaking mission, he must demonstrate strength to make Putin understand that it's impossible for him to achieve his goal. He must stop this war.
MARTIN: Forgive me, I don't mean to offend with this question, but I do feel I need to ask, why should Americans continue to care about the war? I mean, many Americans feel beleaguered and concerned about conditions in their own country, so what would you say to them?
MATVIICHUK: I know that there are a lot of internal problems in United States, and it's totally OK that people in United States care about the internal problem. And that is why I'm so grateful people in United States support Ukrainians in our fight for freedom. And this is because it's not just a war between two states - Russia and Ukraine. This is a war between two systems - authoritarianism and democracy.
MARTIN: You noted at the beginning of our conversation that despite these hardships, especially despite the incredible suffering of the civilian population over the last year, Ukrainians continue to fight. Why is that?
MATVIICHUK: We have no alternative. Putin openly says there is no Ukrainian nation, there is no Ukrainian culture. I'm documenting how Russians in occupied territories physically exterminate active local people in communities - mayors, journalists, teachers, musicians. How they ban Ukrainian language and culture and how they take Ukrainian children - dozens of thousand Ukrainian children - to Russia, put them in Russian reeducation camps, told them, you're not Ukrainians. So let's be clear - people in Ukraine dream about peace, but simply don't want to be occupied by Russia because if Russia occupies Ukraine, we will cease to exist.
MARTIN: That's Oleksandra Matviichuk. She's a human rights lawyer and Nobel Peace Prize laureate. Thank you so much for joining us today.
MATVIICHUK: Thank you.
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